Banter Voices

When The Left Gets Dumb And I Feel Sort Of Conservative

By Oliver Willis · January 16,2013

| 1950 Views | Politics

It all started when I pointed to this story about a prostitute who was arrested in a hotel and had her 4 year old son present. This seems like a pretty cut and dry case of a mother involving her child in what is very clearly illegal activity.

Boy was I wrong.

According to numerous people on Twitter, it was very wrong for me to point out this story. Their reasoning? Well it was a little all over the place, but the main thrust was that this woman had been forced into a life of prostitution and was forced to bring her child along.

This storyline assumes some pretty horrible things. It assumes that a criminal career is legitimate and that it is okay to involve a child.

Whether you believe prostitution should be illegal or not is mostly immaterial. The point is that prostitution is illegal everywhere in America except some parts of Nevada. That’s not up for debate. It is illegal, whether you like it or not.

Once someone engages in prostitution, you are committing a crime. There isn’t a whole lot of wiggle room there.

But the more appalling section of this argument was the collective shrug at the idea that someone is committing a crime, as if it’s okay if they’re poor. It’s immoral, but it also works as evidence of lowered standards for poor people. It assumes that’s the only way a poor person can get ahead and that their moral core is less honest than middle-class and rich people. And that’s supposed to be okay.

My personal experience is quite different. The poorest among us tend to be the most hard working and honest. I speak from personal experience with this, raised by a single mother who never broke the law save perhaps a speeding ticket and who raised me on her own without committing a single felony.

It’s degrading, quite honestly, to make the assumption that a poor person must break the law to eat and that that’s somehow okay. For God’s sake, no.

I know I’m somewhat old fashioned on these things (one person made fun of me because I never drank alcohol before I turned 21) but I believe in right and wrong. I don’t have a whole lot of use for shades of grey and I believe in absolutes.

I don’t think some things are okay when done by a rich person, but verboten when done by someone who is poor. Or vice-versa.

Otherwise you have no moral guidance, no right and wrong. Also known as anarchy.

There’s an element of the left – a small one based on electoral returns and overall influence – that believes in this moral wasteland. One in which a mother can’t be judged for exposing her child to a criminal act if she’s poor, no matter how repugnant it actually is. It’s a part of the left I reject and will deride as hard as the right-wing who want to make it tough for poor people to get ahead in America.

Because they are related. They both assume that wealth, especially at the lower end, is subject to different rules of morality, that we can’t all be moral actors who make good decisions and work hard towards a better future.

It’s a sick way to look at things, even worse when you find yourself defending a mother subjecting her child to things a child shouldn’t be subjected to – in effect abusing the child. You shouldn’t just shrug and basically say “poor people, oh well.”

We should strive to be better than that.

http://twitter.com/gussiejives Gussie Jives

As much as you want to gloss over it, Mr. Willis, the legality of prostitution in your country is entirely material. Its regulation and monitoring would in fact minimize these situations by mandating certain protections and rights for sex workers, and dare I say unionizing would provide for increased wages with which at sex worker could find a babysitter.

Let’s be honest, unless we’re going to use this situation as a springboard to discuss the improvement of the lives of sex workers, then what’s the point of discussing it beyond tut tutting a few people?
http://www.facebook.com/steveplittle Steve Patrick

You, sir, are full of shite. Your focus is all wrong. You are focusing on the act of exposing the child to an illegal act (that is prostitution). That is not necessarily child abuse. Exposing a child to the risk involved in having a strange man that partakes of a prostitute’s services is definitely child endangerment. But you are butt hurt about the illegality alone. That is just wrong.
http://profiles.google.com/bh4099 Thx 4 Fish

I really doubt that compassion can exist in your world of absolutes, Oliver. And that’s a shame. Absolutism leads to less justice and more misery. There is too little compassion for others in a world which is a very tough place to live for most of its inhabitants.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-R-Hicks/1644665632 Michael R Hicks

Oliver,

In my opinion, it’s this small cohort that thinks along these lines that did not do Black folk any favors in the 1960s and 1970s. Perhaps at the root, there genuinely were good intentions, but one could argue on the other hand that it was more or less “liberal racism” that infantilized some very poor African Americans and helped to lock in some negative behaviors and attitudes…that again, at best, did not do African Americans in general many favors.

It made itself manifest in some education policy, it certainly existed in welfare policy. Did *some* African Americans a severe disservice.
Burn

Hey Oliver and Ben,

I volunteer to moderate the blog if you want me to? I could change my name to “Burn, the Moderator”? What do you think? A couple of these guys need timeout. Dark adventurer, DB and FOXXY
- The Dark Avenger
  
  Poor Pseudo-Burn, wanting to be a moderator because why?
Christopher Foxx

All considered, Oliver, you original post and, particularly, your comments attempting to defend it have to be the most morally bankrupt things I’ve ever seen you write.

When your regular posters, who have occasionally disagreed with you but generally share your views, all find fault with your position, and your most staunch supporter is “Burn”, I’d think you’d want to seriously consider whether you’ve really thought your view through.
- Dennis
  
  This is an appeal to popularity argument only. Well, not only. A total of three dissenters on this thread are regular posters, and of the three, db and Froth, two of the three besides you, were farily neutral, wishing there were more specifics to thsi particular case. So aside from your appeal to a scant popularity,you point to one dissenter and ask Oliver if he wants to be like him. Like, ‘dude, how can you betray liberalism like that?’
  About the silliest thing you’ve ever written.
  - dbtheonly
    
    Dennis, Speaking for me, I believe Oliver is right, it was a stupid thing to do, but not knowing what other options existed, I’m reluctant to condemn as vociferously. I’d refer you to the earlier post where I asserted that Right & Left are a line where each of us are to the right of some & to the left of others.
    But I really thought you’d pick up the issue of intolerance & hammer us for it.
    - Dennis
      
      I agree with you in that there’s not enough information here. I have hunches, but that’s all. My guess is drugs are involved, and my fear in this case is that her son may be more a victim than we know from the story.
      
      Oliver actually argues for the side of morality, though, so I have no idea what Christopher was thinking when he described Oliver’s argument as the most morally bankrupt things he’s ever written.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        As I typed before, in general, I view prostitutes as victims, not criminals. The fact that a child is involved makes it even more tragic.
      - Dennis
        
        And I think somehow this blog post attracted a lot of folks who just went out and watched the movie adaptation of the musical Les Miserables without even so much as reading the Cliff Notes version of the book, and they all think OIiver is trying to be Javert coming down hard on Jean Valjean here in this instance because he stole a loaf of bread to feed his sister’s family. And this just so happens to be their first opportunity to say something.
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        And I think somehow this blog post attracted a lot of folks who just went out and watched the movie adaptation of the musical Les Miserables without even so much as reading the Cliff Notes version of the book, and they all think OIiver is trying to be Javert coming down hard on Jean Valjean here in this instance because he stole a loaf of bread to feed his sister’s family
        
        The thought had occured to me, Dennis, and I hadn’t even watched a preview for Les Miserables, let along the movie.
        
        But that’s a lot of extrapolation based on a few comments here. I think you need some psychological help when you come up with extravagant attempts make others’ comments seem wacky and not thoughtful at all.
        
        Here’s an example of Oliver’s morality at work:
        
        The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
        
        Anatole France
        
        You can find it in the Wikiquote, and here’s the original French because I know foreign languages being quoted here is a good way to get you in a pleasant mood:
        
        La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au
        pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain.
      - Dennis
        
        You google a lot and you copy and paste a lot, but you ramble and your thoughts are all over the place and you don’t finish them nor do you give any indication as to why you segue from one into the next.
        
        It’s almost as if you’re trying to impress someone.
        
        Without going to Wikipedia, Google and an English-French translator app, just what is it you’re trying to say here, The Dark Adventurer?
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        I’m sorry, Dennis, I’m not here to hold your hand and spell things out for you when you apparently have as much of a command of the English language as I have.
      - Dennis
        
        Why didn’t you put that in a translator and post it?
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        The translation is in my comment that is blockquoted, Dennis.
        
        I put in the original French at the end in order to baffle you, and it apparently worked.
      - Dennis
        
        I’m baffled alright,I told you that. You googled something, then you you put it in a French translator, then you copied and pasted it. It still doesn’t make any sense.
        
        Making sense or a cogent argument wasn’t your goal.
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        You’re easy to confuse, Dennis. That’s what I like about you.
      - Burn
        
        Copy and paste adventurer, what’s your deal. Do you ever post anything on topic? Do you have a life or just a sad little loser?
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Dennis: You google a lot and you copy and paste a lot
        
        In other words, you actually do research to find out what is true, and then cite your sources so folks can judge the validity of what you’ve said.
        
        Huh. No wonder Dennis has a problem with it.
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        Yes, Dennis reacts to facts and information like a vampire facing a crucifix.
      - Dennis
        
        Googling, then choosing one the entries to copy and paste isn’t research, Christopher. He makes no attempt to find out what is true, he just picks one of the entries that he thinks might sound ok, and then transfers it here, even though it rarely has anything to do with the discussion or bolsters his argument. I’ve pointed that out a hundred times and it’s why I call him Copypasta. It’s his crutch, and his fallback mechanism. There’s no validity to it at all, it’s just google, copy, then paste. If you click on his name you can easily see that he does that elsewhere as well. Ben Cohen asked that he not do that here in his rules, but that like asking a fly not to be attracted to dung.
        
        You taking that for research shows what a dupe you are.
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        And here you are, with my copy pasta to content with and you talking to dupes.
        
        Get a life Dennis, nobody cares about your little hissy fits here. Any more hysteria, and you could play Aunt Pittypatty in a stage version of Gone With The Wind.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Dennis: He makes no attempt to find out what is true, he just picks one of the entries that he thinks might sound ok, and then transfers it here … There’s no validity to it at all, it’s just google, copy, then paste.
        
        Then find something that shows the selection he’s chosen is wrong, Dennis. Instead you refuse to do so, respond to references to scholarly articles with “Don’t care”, and refuse to read them.
        
        Yet, without any attempt to support your side, you just insist you know that what someone has referred to is wrong because, y’know, they actually cited a reference.
        
        You do understand why we don’t take you seriously. You’re too lazy to care. Pity.
      - Burn
        
        Hey dark avenger. Can you help yourself? Do you have a brain? Why in Gods name do you feel I necessary to copy and paste crap/ plagiarize? You need the band hammer. So dumb all the time you are
      - Zython
        
        Yeah, I was going to ignore your stupid concern trolling, but enough is enough. I’ve flagged your comment (as well as that abortion one earlier. After all, lying isn’t civil, now is it?).
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Nope, haven’t seen “Les Miz” in around 20 years. But how is Oliver’s it’s-wrong-to-break-the-law-no-matter-what- not Javertian?
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        You really expect Dennis to give you an honest answer?
      - Burn
        
        Makes it more against the law. Save your bullcrap professional comments for some one who cares. You are a terrible role model
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Fakeburn, I’d wager that I probably know a bit more about criminal law than you. In my state, prostitution is graded as a misdemenor (unless the prostitute knowingly has AIDS, then its a felony). Guess what? In misdemenor cases, I have discresion on arresting or not arresting. If I choose to arrest, the DA has the discretion to drop the charges. If the DA goes forward, the judge or jury has the option to dismiss the charges. Its called looking at the totality of the circumstances, and deciding on how justice is best served. Now, in the case of a felony crime, I don’t have discretion. the law compells an arrest. Want to guess what constitutes a felony? I’ll help you out….Pimping. It seems that my state has a better handle on what’s important and just than you do. The vast majority of prostitues are victims. We try and use the law to get them help, not to punish them for being victimized by evil criminals.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Dennis: I have no idea what Christopher was thinking when he described Oliver’s argument as the most morally bankrupt things he’s ever written.
        
        “you[r] original post and, particularly, your comments attempting to defend it”
        
        Oliver: there’s never a justification to break the law out of economic need.
        
        CFoxx: Yep. Better to let your child starve than steal a loaf of bread. Right, Oliver?
        
        And his repeated insistence that “There’s literally nothing *forcing* someone into having to be a prostitute”, that she had options, that she could have done something else without ever actually saying just what else she should have done.
        
        I do agree with Oliver, though, that’s it’s very conservative of him.
      - Dennis
        
        Again, that’s not being morally bankrupt. He’s arguing for her to have morals. You have no indications here that she had no options and that her child would starve without her prostituting herself.
        
        You can disagree with him, but saying his argument is morally bankrupt doesn’t make sense, and your argument here doesn’t explain what you meant by that.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Morals are not necessarily defined as “good.” A person can have good, bad, or neutral “morals” or something in between. You can have morals that are virtuous. You can have appalling morals.
      - Dennis
        
        Christopher said that what OW wrote had no morals, though, Frothy. He said Oliver’s argument was morally bankrupt. I have no idea where that came from, or if maybe he just didn’t think it through before he wrote it.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Dennis: He said Oliver’s argument was morally bankrupt. I have no idea where that came from
        
        Only if you refuse to read or refuse to understand what was written.
        
        Which, has not been unusual for you.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Dennis: You have no indications here that she had no options and that her child would starve without her prostituting herself.
        
        As I’ve already said. There is very little information on this specific case. But, as has been already said on several occasions and backed up with those actual first-hand sources that you hate so much, many people in similar situations as her are there because they don’t have much if any choice.
        
        And his argument, that there is never any reason ever to break the law and everyone always has options, is morally bankrupt. It allows no room to consider the actual circumstances of a particular case.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Dennis: but saying his argument is morally bankrupt doesn’t make sense, and your argument here doesn’t explain what you meant by that.
        
        Yes, it does and yes, I have. Several times.
        
        That you don’t want to understand the plain English I wrote is merely just another demonstration that you insist things are not as they clearly are. I explained my reasons for seeing Oliver’s position as morally bankrupt a few times now. You insisting I haven’t doesn’t make it so.
  - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
    
    This really isn’t a “betryal of liberalism” discussion. At its core, we’re looking at the root issues of crime, and who the real victims of crime are. Specifically, its a discussion directed at sex crimes. While I have some professional knowledge of how women are victimized by sex crimes, I am curious if legalization and regulation might be a better option? I’m going to have to do more research on that. The other issue here is, “Are there moral absolutes?” I’m not sure that there are, and view “morality” on a sliding scale, where absolute adherence might be just as bad as absolute moral anarchy.
  - Christopher Foxx
    
    Dennis: This is an appeal to popularity argument only. Well, not only.
    
    Is it or isn’t it? Make up your mind.
    - Dennis
      
      It’s not. I corrected myself. You made more than one faulty argument in that post. I made that clear.
- dbtheonly
  
  Christopher, Remember we are dealing with the “Troll Who Has Hijacked Burn’s Name.” Lord Willing, we’ll get the Real Burn back soon.
  - Christopher Foxx
    
    Yeah. Such a coward.
    - Burn
      
      You have been flagged as well. Oliver, these morons have no argument. It is damn illegal period end of story
      - dbtheonly
        
        TWHHBN: I’m quaking in my bunny slippers.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        And yet, not a one of my comments has been deleted, while I notice several of yours are no longer here.
  - Burn
    
    Ben, I have flagged DB again. Has he ever posted on topic? All he does is attack and attempt to bully. I would ask to flag his IP address ASAP. Thanks a bunch buddy
- Burn
  
  FOXXY pants, Oliver loves me big boy. You and your cult are on the outside looking in. You feel like you lost your first boyfriend don’t you?
  - Christopher Foxx
    
    sigh Really getting tire of having to flag almost anything “Burn” writes. Can this guy get banned yet?
eddy mongo

Wanna cock fight with numero uno??
eddy mongo

Da???? Wanna massage my prostate???
eddy mongo

Burn??? Wanna touch me where i pee???
eddy mongo

Anyways…whats the deal with nipples…why do i have em??? And the god damn change gobbler in my couch is prohibiting my ankle is in beast mode
eddy mongo

My shorts are infringing upon my ball bags right to jingle freely while i dance to the chipmunks christmas…..manbearpig will eat your soul!!!!
eddy mongo

Mr cuffman….manbearpig is back baby cakes!!!!!!! Oh and lagursky has his asshole packed with peanut butter…no jelly tho. Judge judy is hung like a billy goat
eddy mongo

My cock feels like corn
- The Dark Avenger
  
  Thanks for sharing, I’ll gladly flag your comments so you get the attention you deserve.
http://ghostcow.bandcamp.com brendan

It’s too bad Mr. Willis wasn’t around 50 years ago because I would have really loved to read his articles in favor of segregated buses and lunch counters.
- John (not McCain)
  
  He probably would have shot Rosa Parks, what with being so keen on the law and all.
  - Burn
    
    You are a racist moron. Get a clue
    - John (not McCain)
      
      Get RIAF.
- Jacob Muehlbauer
  
  Just remember: It was against the law. PERIOD. While we’re at it, we should probably transport Mr. Willis back to the pre-Civil War south and ask him what should be done to runaway slaves. I mean, as he said, “there’s never a justification to break the law out of economic need”.
  - Burn
    
    Jacob,
    
    Once again, you are lagged for breaking Ben’s rules. Clearly Oliver wrote this thread about you. You constantly break the law here.
    
    Burn baby Burn
  - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=663669914 Sean Richardson
    
    Wait, are you seriously trying to say that slaves ran away (breaking the law) only out of economic need? Or did you just horribly mangle your own point somewhere along the line?
- dbtheonly
  
  Hey,
  
  Don’t be so tough on Oliver. There’s a huge difference between breaking a law for convenience & violating a rule that is morally wrong.
  - Jacob Muehlbauer
    
    Who are you to decide that prostitution is “morally wrong” and thus a just law? Have you ever met a sex worker (by met I mean spoken with and not paid for consensual sex)? There are a myriad of reasons why people work in the sex trade and it is always much more complex than just deciding to “break a law for convenience”. Also, according to Oliver’s own standards, there is absolutely no difference. He clearly stated that he believes in absolutes, it is wrong to break the law and it’s never justified to break a law out of economic need. Thus, we can either accept that his worldview would remain constant regardless of his opinion regarding the legitimacy of the law in question or he can add a bit of nuance to his writing.
    - Burn
      
      Jacob, once again. Prostitution is ILLEGAL. What part don’t you understand??????
      
      Burn Baby Burn
    - dbtheonly
      
      “according to Oliver’s own standards, there is absolutely no difference”.
      
      There is indeed a difference. And we’re not just talking about performing the illegal act. We’re talking about bringing a 4 year old child along. I will not get into the moral right or wrong of prostitution. You have your opinion. I would only point out that most governments and societies over time have condemned the act. You are in a decided minority.
      
      Slavery and discrimination based on nothing more than the color of a guy’s skin was, and is, wrong. Since governments are founded to preserve rights and liberty; they can not promulgate rules in favor of such. We as citizens have the right, no duty, to oppose such illegal actions. And before you start talking about slavery in ancient times, I’ll point out that the slavery of the Romans was not based on the color of skin.
      - Jacob Muehlbauer
        
        Please read the article. The author clearly said that it is always wrong to break a law out of economic need. If he wants to account for laws that he disagrees with, then it might be a good idea for him to write more clearly. Having said that, no one is advocating for slavery or discrimination of any kind; we’re simply asking how his stated worldview would apply to Jim Crow laws and slavery.
  - Burn
    
    DB,
    
    Get the brown stuff off your nose. It is embarrassing. You comment above against my buddy Oliver and now you come down here and again post off topic. Are you bi polar? Here’s the deal. Breaking the law is against the law. Get it through your thick scull
    - dbtheonly
      
      Troll Who Has Hijacked Burn’s Name:
      
      The Real Burn understands nuance. Real Burn understands “Off Topic” is not a mantra to be cited whenever you don’t like a post. You give yourself away.
      - Burn
        
        I am the only Burn Baby Burn. Please post on topic. Ben- time for the hammer baby
- Burn
  
  Mr. Willis I am sure would have then and would today kick your ass you bigot
  - http://twitter.com/BarryBummer Barry Bummer
    
    Ooooh, tough guy.
    - Burn
      
      Sweet hair Barry
GonzoI

The “Right-Wing” objective is not to make it hard for the poor. Just as there are a few among the Left are willing to defend any action taken by an underprivileged person, there are a few on the Right who will push for absolutes without considering who they steamroll in the process. On both sides, it is a highly vocal minority that makes these thoughtless statements.

The majority on both sides have certain things they want and don’t want, all with the underlying suffix “…and I don’t want to have to think about the rest.” Republicans don’t want higher taxes, and don’t want disincentive programs – but don’t want to think about those left out in the cold when that’s taken to an extreme. Democrats want programs to help those who can’t help themselves – but don’t want to think about the long-term effect of creating a system that can be gamed by nearly anyone unwilling to work. When confronted, most will make a poorly thought out excuse for why they don’t have to worry about those other things (eg. Todd Aikin’s famous comment on “legitimate rape”), and look like an idiot to those who care.

The few who take a full view of a problem aren’t able to do much, because we don’t elect people who do one thing well, we elect people to do everything poorly.
- http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
  
  For those who care, an interesting related story here: www DOTprostitutionresearch DOTcom/survivor_writings/000242 DOT html
  - Burn
    
    Don’t care
    - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
      
      Of course not.
    - Christopher Foxx
      
      Of course you don’t. It’s a chance to read something that would inform you about reality.
      
      Of course you want to avoid it at all costs.
http://socialmemorycomplex.net Jeremy Weiland

I don’t have a whole lot of use for shades of grey and I believe in absolutes.

The question is whether you have those absolutes right.
http://twitter.com/Matthew4300 Matt

Are you volunteering to babysit when she has to work, or are you busy giving your opinion on the Internets?
Christopher Foxx

I don’t have a whole lot of use for shades of grey and I believe in absolutes.

A narrow, absolutist view has been responsible for a great deal of tragedy and in justice.

There are shades of gray in the world. Things do need to be judged on a case-by-case basis. And adamantly adhering to a “absolutist-no-grey” policy ignores reality and justice.

What would you have had her do with her child, Oliver?
- Burn
  
  Raised the child in a home that fosters proper up bringing. Sowing a child how to be a whore is against moral and law. You must be a moron
  - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
    
    The story is pretty thin on details, but we do know a few things. She was brought to New Orleans from another state in order to work as a dancer and prostitute. I’d bet the “prostitute” part was left out when she was recruited for the dancing job. Also arrested were a second prostitute and the man who drove them to the hotel. Usually, those males driving females to meet with their clients are known as pimps. Pimps can get awfully violent towards their employees when they are reluctant to “perform.”
    I’m speculating, but it looks like we have a young woman, likely far from her support network, who possibly faced violence if she didn’t go to the hotel to meet with the john. With no support system and no daycare, she either brings the child with her, or leaves the child alone. So which choice does she make? Face a severe beating at the hands of her pimp? Go, and leave the child who knows where, possibly in a location not much better than the hotel room, where at least she knows where her child is?
    If you were in that situation, which choice, out of many less-than-optimal choices would you make?
    - dbtheonly
      
      Good old Ol. Looking up facts when the rest of us are idly speculating.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        To be fair, I’m also speculating based on what little we know about this case, but pimps are known to lure women into prostitution with the promise of a “good job” that never materializes. Once the victem is away from family and friends and placed in a city where she knows no one, it makes it easier for the pimp to maintain control. That’s why they do it that way.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        And you made it very clear in your original comment that you were speculating. So no foul at all. On the contrary.
        
        And, unlike Oliver and “Burn” you’re recognizing that one can’t just look at a few skimpy facts and then declare she had other options available to her and condemn her.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Its probably just me, but I see prostitutes as victims of maniputive crime organizations. Arrest them? Yes, but not to prosecute them. Use the law to get them to a safe place and then use the intel they can provide to go after the real criminals, the pimps that exploit them and make most of the money.
      - Burn
        
        Again, complete and utter LIE. You are clueless. Not even close to true. She broke the law
      - Burn
        
        You once again are spreading false truths otherwise known as here say or speculation. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
        
        Ollie and Ben, how in The hell do you put up with this crap?
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Hearsay. I’d suggest you look up the definition, because its not what you think it is. Hearsay is not a “false truth,” nor is speculation. Hearsay is the repeating of information of which the speaker has no direct knowledge. It might be true, it might be false. Speculation is theoretical exercise based on a set of known observations or facts. The speculation may turn out to be correct, or incorrect, but it is a logical process based on a set of facts.
    - Burn
      
      I wouldn’t be in an illegal situation so can’t answer. I can tell you that she had many options. Taking that child into a room of sex is worse than leaving a child at home unattended. I guarantee you every judge in America would agree with me. What a disgrace. You are defending a whore for Gods sake.
      
      Burn Baby Burn
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        And the madness is starting to manifest itself, the descent has begun.
        No, every judge wouldn’t agree with you. Its called “judicial discretion.” Judges and juries, can, and do look at the totality of the circumstances. Prostitution is widely seen as a “victimless” crime, as both the prostitute and the john “voluntarily” enter into a business transaction that allegedly harms no one. However, the facts of the matter are that most prostitutes wind up being coerced into the oldest profession by manipulative individuals. The victims in prostitution aren’t the johns, it isn’t society, and its not the pimps. The victims are the prostitutes themselves who are exploited by their pimps, raped by their johns, and left with few, if any options to escape the vicious circle of violence and exploitation.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        So, a child observing a biological function is worse than an unsupervised child being left in potential peril? In an example I gave earlier, a woman was faced with a choice. Go to work and leave the children unattended, or stay home and lose a days pay, and potentially the job on which her family relied. She chose to go to work, and her two kids wound up dead.
      - dbtheonly
        
        God help us Ol, keep me from ever having to make that decision.
        Sometimes there aren’t good answers..
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        My point exactly.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Perhaps you could elaborate on those “many options?”
      - Burn
        
        Frothy,
        No matter how you cut it, guess what. Yep you guessed it, Prostitution is illegal, against the law. Get it through your thick skull. You of all people should no it Kifilta baby
        
        Burn Baby Burn
    - Pawtrax
      
      I just posted a comment about this before seeing yours. The story says the woman advertised in Backpage[dot]com which is well-known for providing ad space to the sex slave industry. See my comment above to a link to a story at the Daily Beast or just google up Backpage and sex slavery.
      
      It is highly unlikely that this woman had a choice in the matter of becoming prostitute. It is more likely that she and the other woman agreed to become dancers, were transported to a new city and then threatened with violence unless they did what they were told.
      
      The idea that this woman, or most women, *choose* to become prostitutes is just ridiculous. That is not the reality of prostitution.
      - Burn
        
        What does this have anything to do with the topic at hand? No matter how you cut it, guess what. Yep you guessed it, Prostitution is illegal, against the law. Get it through your thick skull.
        
        Burn Baby Burn
      - John (not McCain)
        
        If it weren’t for prostitution, you wouldn’t exist.
      - Burn
        
        And you would have a penis and not a vagina
  - Christopher Foxx
    
    Who said she was raised to be a whore? You’re arguing against things nobody said because you have no legitimate argument against the points actually being made.
    
    While I could make an argument that she’s raising the child to be self-sufficient, a proper upbringing.
Burn

Don’t waste my time with your copy and paste garbage. Stay on topic DA. I know it’s difficult.
- The Dark Avenger
  
  Thanks for the gratuitous insult, not Burn. Why don’t you apply to be a moderator here? It would suit your temperament.
  
  The subject is poverty and what people to to survive when they have no job skills above those called for by minimum wage jobs, or what they’re suppose to do if they can’t find a mw job in the first place.
  
  Call something I post here garbage in the future, and I won’t respond to it, troll.
  - Burn
    
    Yes, I agree DA but this is Ollie and Ben’s blog so use your God given brain and post on topic. Copy and pasting garbage from some of other site, I.e. plagiarizing is ridiculous. Ollie says that prostitution is illegal and wrong and I happen to agree with him. Sorry buddy. Over and out
    - The Dark Avenger
      
      Really, you’re following the rules here?:
      
      1. Please be civil. Don’t harass anyone, threaten, or use
      foul/offensive language when addressing fellow commenters. Anyone doing this will be blocked immediately.
      
      I wasn’t plagiarizing, I was quoting G. B. Shaw on the subject of poverty.(If I was plagiarzing, I wouldn’t give credit where it’s due. Capice?) If you find that irrelevant, that’s your POV, but to accuse me of plagiarizing isn’t very wise, to say the least.
      
      Keep demonstrating that you’re not the Burn that use to comment here, that’s a sure way to get what you want.
      - Burn
        
        Can you please post on topic and stop replying to me like you promise above? I flagged you and hopefully Ben puts an end to your boring attacks off topic and copy and paste rants.
        
        Burn
      - Tom Dufner
        
        Awesome! Keep up the good work, buddy Burn. I am so glad you are here to help with these things!
      - Burn
        
        Hey Tom, post on topic buddy. Not sure what kind of value you add to this but attacking. Ben and Oliver, clearly this guy signed on to attack. Please check his IP address. I have a funny feeling that he broke one of your rules or many Ben.
      - Tom Dufner
        
        I was just pointing out how glad I am you are here Burn, you know, to help keep this thread civil and engaging. Gosh.
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        Nobody is fooled by your obvious attempts to pretend you’re not a troll. The real Burn would understand the difference between quoting someone and plagiarizing their quote for one’s own. Nobody believes that you’re anything but a ninny with a keyboard, and a desperate need for attention.
      - Burn
        
        Seriously Dark Avenger. Please post on topic or you will get banned. Your attempts at insults are awful, kind of like your dirty breath. Ben, please ban this moron
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        Oh, that was so scary, I almost forgot to laugh.
      - Burn
        
        You are a glutton for punishment. You need some time out bad breath
      - Dennis
        
        The hole in the back of his head serves as a drain.
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        That’s nice, Dennis, do you have any more useful feedback?
      - Burn
        
        Dark adventurous is a copy and paste legend. He loves summer sausage and corn. He enjoys sandpaper and friction. Enough said
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        Did you stay up all night just to compose that, PseudoBurn?
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        Ah, random insults. That will convince people that you’re a real thinker and someone whose opinions should be taken seriously.
        
        Not.
        
        See you later, alligator.
      - Burn
        
        Copy and paster. Can you please post something on topic? Use your brain DA not google bozo
      - The Dark Avenger
        
        Thanks for the name-calling, it really demonstrates you’re not Burn.
- Tom Dufner
  
  You’re right. I hate it when threads get derailed by people who do such things.
  - Burn
    
    Topic Tom, Topic. I sure hope you aren’t misrepresenting yourself. They make homes for people like you. Ben/ Oliver, please check out this guy. I think he may be clinically insane. IP addresses don’t lie and duplicate names is a big NO NO in Ben’s world
    - Tom Dufner
      
      Ben, this commenter Burn is personally attacking me. He is off topic accusing me of being someone else. I am Tom Dufner of Washington NJ. You can see my full profile by clicking on my avatar picture. I have nothing to hide.
http://twitter.com/CrankLawyer Crank Lawyer

So Legality and Morality are all bound up for you? What is illegal is immoral? No daylight between the concepts?
Burn

Oliver- best piece you have ever written in my opinion. The argument also holds true with drugs and driving while intoxicated. It is illegal, period end of story.

That woman should be arrested and serve time for that despicable crime she committed.

Well done Ollie
- Tom Dufner
  
  I agree totally.
Jacob Muehlbauer

Really? There’s never a justification to break the law out of economic need? I imagine it’s really nice to reign judgment on others with the foreknowledge that you will never be forced to make such a decision yourself.
- Burn
  
  Jacob, it is against the law, period end of story. Not right and illegal.
  - Jacob Muehlbauer
    
    You like to think in absolutes don’t you? Here’s an absolute for you: I’m absolutely sure that you’re an asshole.
    - Burn
      
      Why the attack? That is against Ben’s rules. Be nice buddy.
      - Jacob Muehlbauer
        
        You advocated imprisoning a single mother because she didn’t have a babysitter and she wanted to feed her child. You know nothing else about the woman. As for “Ben’s rules”: I could give a damn about his rules. The same applies for him.
      - Burn
        
        You are darn right I do. Go flip burgers at Burger King, wash/dry cars, clean homes, etc…. Selling your body is against the law. Get it thou your sick HEAD. You have serious mental issues. May be time to visit the Doctor
      - Benthedailybanter
        
        Hi Jacob, you are welcome to post here, but please do not be offensive or call people names. We’re going to delete any comments that violate our rules immediately. Thanks.
      - Burn
        
        Thanks Ben
http://twitter.com/wetcasements James

“I don’t have a whole lot of use for shades of grey and I believe in absolutes.”

If a country develops an economic system with gaping inequalities mostly based on race, isn’t that “absolutely” wrong?

Jesus, just watch 10 minutes of The Wire. People weren’t defending this woman’s actions, they were saying that there are reasons why a poor, often black or minority woman, is more likely to commit crimes than a white male, statistically speaking.

And no, it isn’t because blacks are predisposed to crime due to genetics. Quite the opposite, actually.
- http://www.facebook.com/oliverwillis Oliver Willis
  
  ive watched the wire. its a great tv show. there’s never a justification to break the law out of economic need.
  - Christopher Foxx
    
    Yep. Better to let your child starve than steal a loaf of bread.
    
    Right, Oliver?
    - http://www.oliverwillis.com/ Oliver Willis
      
      you could go to a local food bank. crazy, i know.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Food banks are under pressure to feed everyone who needs help.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Or, you could try to provide for yourself and not have to remain on welfare and dependent on food banks.
        
        Your argument continues to be, better to follow the letter of the letter of the law and suffer (and be a burden to the greater society) than to attempt to do something illegal.
        
        Are you really arguing that all laws are just and proper?
      - Burn
        
        Yes we are FOXXY. Go read Roe vs. wade in your spare time. Clearly ÿou just sit on blogs all day and probably watch tea leaves
      - Jezzer
        
        Are you *really* arguing that breaking the law and stealing is better than utilizing the public assistance system?
  - John (not McCain)
    
    I’ll keep that in mind. If I one day have a chance to save your life, but must break a law to do so, I’ll remember which choice you would want me to make.
  - Pawtrax
    
    That’s funny given that your understanding of the realities of prostitution seems to be founded on repeated viewings of Pretty Woman and Trading Places.
    - Burn
      
      Your not funny. It’s against the law
      - John (not McCain)
        
        *You’re.
      - Burn
        
        Seriousely? Your a crabbey micxed up brat
- Burn
  
  James, you are WRONG. Sorry dude. Never ever acceptable
http://www.facebook.com/people/William-B-Turner/602925986 William B. Turner

I don’t hear anyone saying that “a poor person must break the law to eat….” I see people making the observation that some women in our sexist society find that they have no choice but to prostitute themselves to survive. That your mother was not among them is all to the good, but thing I think liberals tend to have in common is a strong reluctance to generalize too, um, liberally from their own experiences in looking at others’ lives. Apparently, your mother never felt the need to abort a pregnancy, so we should prohibit all abortions?
- http://www.facebook.com/oliverwillis Oliver Willis
  
  ” I see people making the observation that some women in our sexist society find that they have no choice but to prostitute themselves to survive.”
  
  …. and that’s bullshit. Honestly. There are hundreds of jobs – many of them shitty as hell – that people can have without breaking our existing laws. There’s literally nothing *forcing* someone into having to be a prostitute
  - dbtheonly
    
    Oliver,
    
    Left and Right are relative terms. We will always be to the left of some & the right of others.
    
    I’d suggest that the real story is that the arrested Mother could find no other acceptable option for the care of her child. Your Mother made wise choices. This woman is not as lucky. But is says something about us as a society; that she felt she had so few options.
    - http://www.facebook.com/oliverwillis Oliver Willis
      
      we always have options. she made a poor moral decision.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Sometimes, all of the options are bad ones. Perhaps she could get a minimum wage job, but what does she do for daycare in the absence of any support system? We had an incident in my town last year where a woman left her two kids home alone, because she had to go to work, couldn’t afford daycare, and was unable to find a sitter. The children died in a fire. Her choices were to stay home, and possibly lose the job, or go to work, with tragic results, but the calculation may have been the chance of losing the job was greater than the chance of random tragedy. She’s now facing neglect charges. I think we need to look at the reasons why someone might see prostitution as the best choice out of a variety of bad choices.
        In the history of our country people have taken moral stands that were illegal, and many legally acceptable practices that were morally indefensible.
      - Burn
        
        So Ol, if I drive drunk because I have no other option but walk 10 miles in -10 degrees and you pull me over, are you going to tell me to keep driving because I had no other alternative?
        
        Or if I leave my kids in the car to rob a store and when I come out my car is gone. When the cops show up, should I be let go for breaking two laws?
        
        Terrible argument my friend
      - http://www.oliverwillis.com/ Oliver Willis
        
        Or you could just sit your ass where you are vs endangering society.
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        You could also get drunk at home, and leave the driving completly out of the equation.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Excellent point, Froth. I see a lot from Oliver and Burn from their close-minded moral high horses. Haven’t yet seen they say what she should have done instead.
      - Burn
        
        FOXXY, then you clearly don’t read snookms. Go retread big boy
      - dbtheonly
        
        Ol,
        And I’ll point out that juries have failed to convict, even when the letter of the law was broken, because the juiy’s ideaq of justice required otherwise. The laws exist for justice, not simple regulation.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        Yes. She should have left the four-year-old alone while she was out working.
        
        Right, Oliver?
      - Burn
        
        If she wasn’t breaking the law then she could have brought the 4 year old to work with her. Enough said. Your argument is terrible. Clearly you enjoy breaking the law. Just trying to help you , pal buddy
      - http://frothslosh.typepad.com/ Ol Froth
        
        Most jobs do not allow you to bring your kids to work with you.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        What should she have done with her child?
      - http://www.oliverwillis.com/ Oliver Willis
        
        she could always get a job that is *legal*
      - http://profiles.google.com/bh4099 Thx 4 Fish
        
        Anyone who has to pay childcare expenses on a minimum wage income, may as well stay home, there won’t be enough left over for it to be workable.
    - Burn
      
      DB, wrong period end of story.
      
      Sorry, your pal Burn
  - Pawtrax
    
    Oliver, You say that there is “literally nothing *forcing* someone into having to be a prostitute” and yet backpage[DOT]com where this woman was advertising herself is notorious for taking ads from sex slaves:
    
    “Despite mountains of evidence that the company has helped facilitate American sex slavery–including that of children–VVM has carried on with its sleazy and inhumane business here, as well as in many other nations…Just this month, a 15-year-old Long Island girl escaped from her kidnappers who drugged and gang-raped her before selling her for sex. Where did they peddle her?You guessed it: Backpage. In their letter, the AGs referenced a May 2011 incident where a 15-year-old girl was forced to have sex with various men for $100 to $150 by a Dorchester, Mass., man. Backpage helpfully provided the outlet for him to sell this poor girl to her rapists.”
    
    Women are forced into prostitution everyday in this country. You should really know more about the details of this woman’s particular case before you condemn her.
    
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/30/sex-slavery-facilitators-backpage-s-sleazy-adult-ads.html
    - Burn
      
      What does this have anything to do with the topic at hand? No matter how you cut it, guess what. Yep you guessed it, Prostitution is illegal, against the law. Get it through your thick skull.
      
      Burn Baby Burn
- Burn
  
  Yes, abortion is illegal, just like drugs, driving while intoxicated, prositution, etc…. There is NO debate. Sorry dude
  - Christopher Foxx
    
    Uh, wrong. Abortion is not illegal.
    
    Get yer head out of your ass. If you want to pretend you’re actually adding to the discussion, at least avoid blatantly obvious lies.
    - Burn
      
      It is illegal. Go read Roe vs. Wade jack rabbit Try to post something on topic jack rabbit. Just flagged you for breaking Ben’s rules. This is way to easy FOXXY. Sorry buddy
      - Tom Dufner
        
        That’s right, Burn. I agree totally. Wow, I cannot believe how much in common we have.
      - Christopher Foxx
        
        NO, it’s not. Women have abortions all the time in the US. Legally.
        
        In Roe v Wade the Court declared abortion to be a fundamental right under the United States Constitution, and subjecting all laws attempting to restrict it to the standard of strict scrutiny. As 30 seconds of effort would have shown you.
        
        Clearly you are either lying or grossly ignorant with no interest in being anything else. And, yes, your remaining ignorant is way to easy BURNSY. You should try expending an effort sometime.
        
        And I’m not sorry at all that your a liar. Buddy.

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