Romney Shambles, Income Tax Edition

More than any other campaign I’ve ever watched, the actions of the Romney campaign confuse me. In a bad way. They do things that don’t seem to make any actual sense even if you afford them the benefit of the benefit of the doubt.

For instance, today’s tax release. We don’t really know any more now than we did before, other than to be reminded that Romney is not being forthcoming with his tax situation. Its as if he thinks that he’s going to be treated as he was during the Fox News primary: assertions accepted as fact, campaign spin reported as news and nothing more.

Did he not see that people would realize that he juiced up his tax rate, piling on things so that the 9% he’d be taxed on became 14% — which in and of itself is no great thing either?

Did he think that releasing returns only from years in which he was a likely presidential candidate continues to raise suspicions about the years he won’t release — like everyone else? (12 years of Obama/Biden returns are available, from before Obama was even a declared Senate candidate)

It’s even crazier that they think a letter from PriceWaterhouseCoopers can substitute for those tax returns. It’s like he got a letter excusing young Mitt from math class “cause he got a cold real bad.” You’ve got to be kidding me.

The mainstream media, in their horserace obsession with presidential politics, often breathlessly announces new “hires” in the so-called “invisible primary.” This is supposed to be the period in which all the best consultants and campaign operatives are snapped up by one campaign or another. The press goes on about how this person is a genius at fundraising, or this one knows the ins-and-outs of the Iowa caucuses, or one thing or another. But the last few cycles have shown that this doesn’t really mean anything. Dean didn’t win Iowa. Clinton didn’t win the nomination. Giuliani and Fred Thompson’s teams couldn’t do diddly with their clients, etc.

And in Romney’s case they can’t seem to run a good campaign because the candidate and his nonsense keep getting in the way.

 

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  • oi ly
  • oi ly

    Dennis – “That’s just politics, right Oily? Irrelevant.”

    You’re so fucking earnest when it suits you. The Republican Tea Party fokes have been unrelenting in their spurious accusations toward Obama and now you’re crying about “politics”? Why just the other day Mitt falsely accused Obama of being sympathetic to the violent Muslim terrorists. That was a load of crap and Mitt was trying to capitalize on the scary black Muslim President meme that you guys have been perpetrating since before the beginning of his term. Not to mention the birther thing that some of your fokes still cling to and exploit whenever possible. Nothing political on your side, just down home earnest folks wanting to have a civilized discussion about arcane IRA tax laws and exemptions. Get a grip.

    All we want is for him to release his tax returns and you act as if that request is some kind of capital offense. Good God.

  • oi ly
  • db

    Mr. Cuffman,

    There were lots of good things about the 20th Century. Bonzo making a monkey of Ronald Reagan among them.

  • Plunket

    That was snark, db.

    Yoi.

    /snark

  • db

    I’ve got the link to the story I referenced to el earlier about the Romney’s sense of entitlement.

    Okay lets see if I can manage this:

    http://consortiumnews.com/2012/09/21/lucky-voters-can-pick-romney/

    Probably not.

    • Plunket

      This thread is unreadable. Who forgot to close tags? Priceless, was that you?

      Ugh.

      • db

        Dennis,

        Assuming you’re talking to me, since I don’t know waht a “tag” is or how to open one, I could hardly have forgotten to close it.

        On the other hand; making the thread unreadable to you is not an unalloyed disappointment.

      • Zython

        The party of personal responsibility strikes again.

        • Wilbur

          Aha, so this is Dennis’s latest technique for when he’s getting his ass kicked on an issue: leave a tag hanging and come back a day or two later and pronounce the thread ‘unreadable’ :)

          /smirk

  • Justanotherrighty
  • Justanotherrighty

    tags

  • M2

    I am still upset Michael Steele never threw us the hip-hop party he promised, but Priebus can’t win with Mitt being Mitt.

    Also, the GOP excommunication of Bill Kristol is going to beging soon. Here’s a brief clip from Fox via Think Progress.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WouVtYUGT1A

    • db

      Marco,

      Thanks for the clip.

      I’m not sure how Republican Orthodoxy will play out after the election. Assuming Romney loses; the split between “Social Republicans” & “Economic Republicans” will likely widen. Kristol will only be among many who have & will fault the Romney Campaign. I’m not sure teh purists will be able to write them all off.

      Speaking of “writing off”; do I remember that the former Rep. Gov. Fla. was due to speak at the Democratic convention. Never heard anything else.

      • M2

        I think it will be blinders on till election day from here on out from them, unless the debates dramatically change something. Mitt will stick to bashing the economy because it’s the only area he has any footing left. Scare tactics now thru November.

        Charlie Crist did speak at the DNC. It wasn’t a thriller. If he would have come out, that would have been cool.

        • db

          Crist is gay? Lots of stuff I don’t know. Still offering room for moderate (former) Republicans to join out big tent.

          I’m inclined to doubt that the debates will prove a major game changer. Romney can claim a success if he sticks to his talking points. I’m hoping for some real interaction between the two though. Let’s see “real Mitt”.

          el,

          There’s an article on one of the associated sites by Ron Perry(?) which talks about Romney & the sense of entitlement both he & Ann show. Extremely good article & strikes me as spot on. I’d set up a “link” if I knew how to do so & could find the article again. Sorry. Cue DA for another bout of dragging db into the 21st Century whether he wants to come or not.

  • db

    Marco,

    From earlier.

    What would you have Priebus say? He’s Chariman of the Republican National Committee. “Our Candidates’ Wife has the common touch of Marie Antionette?” “Mitt’ won’t show me his taxes but the stink is greater than the Chicago Stockyards”? “We want to talk about jobs & the economy but this other stuff gets in the way”?

    Priebus is in a tough position. What can we expect him to say? Remember what happened to Michael Steele.

  • M2

    I found this funny, too. I am sure every member of congress has platinum flying status, but when your party is getting flak for its “screw the poor” mentality…

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/22/rubio-tweets-his-airline-woes/

    • enlightened liberal

      Why does Marco Rubio hate free enterprise?

  • oi ly

    “At first I thought this was an April Fool’s joke,” said 2008 Romney campaign strategist Alex Castellanos, who is currently unaligned with campaigns, referring to the Friday afternoon tax dump.

    “But it isn’t April. I can’t imagine that David Axelrod will now say, ‘I’m glad Mitt put this issue behind him.’ This will drag Mitt’s taxes back into the debate. And there’s not many days left. I just can’t imagine why they would do this. There are 40 days left and you have now made more of them about Mitt’s taxes. … You don’t serve a life sentence and then confess afterward. They’ve taken their beating on this (already). … I just don’t understand how a (being) ‘little pregnant’ strategy (works).”

  • M2

    You gotta love denial.

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/politico-live/2012/09/priebus-republicans-had-a-good-week-last-week-136413.html?hp=l2

    “I think that we had a good week last week,” Priebus said on ABC’s “This Week.” “I think in retrospect, in that we were able to frame up the debate last week in the sense of, what future do we want and do you want out there.”

    What does a bad week look like at the RNC?

    • oi ly

      To be fair –

      That came after Priebus said, earlier on in the interview, that Romney has been clear his “47 percent” remark “probably wasn’t the best-said moment in the campaign” and, ultimately, this was “probably not the best week in the campaign.”

      LOL!

      • M2

        Lunatics. Facts don’t matter anymore, even internally.

        • db

          I dunno Marco,

          I’m pretty much in agreement with Priebus that this whole last week has not been a high point for the Romney campaign.

          el,

          I don’t know if swarmy is the word, detached, distant, aloof? What was the quote? “Romney looks insincere. Even when he’s not.” WMR’s distance from us is obvious in so many ways.
          I’ like firing people (who don’t give good service). I’ve not returned to restaurants when I’ve had lousy service, but firing people?
          Ann’s “You people” (have had all the financial information you’re going to get)

          It’s the attitude that is just way different than mine.

          Am I making any sense to you?

          (Dennis, I know your retort. The question is for el.)

          • M2

            It certainly hasn’t bene a high point. I was commenting on the flip-flop Priebus made regarding their week in practically the same breath. Disastrous week for Mitt and his litle buddy who seems to be making no noise on the campaign trail.

          • enlightened liberal

            Your choice of words is as valid as mine. It seems from here that Mitt sees himself as better than the American public. He tells the American public that they don’t need to know things like his tax returns, the details of his program if he became President. He is campaigning as though he thinks he deserve the Presidency and why are all these people questioning him?

          • Plunket

            I’ like firing people (who don’t give good service). I’ve not returned to restaurants when I’ve had lousy service, but firing people?

            So you don’t go back to that restaurant and chances are other people who got bad service don’t go back to that restaurant and guess what, you go by that restaurant a few months later and you see it’s no longer there. Too bad for all the other people that worked there who did give service, though, right, at least the idiots who who gave you lousy service got to keep their jobs for a couple months longer.

          • M2

            He is campaigning as though he thinks he deserve the Presidency and why are all these people questioning him? el

            Exactly how he’s acted since he began running 10 years ago.

  • db

    I didn’t try to italicize & when I typed the comment it was in normal font.

  • db

    Sorry oi,

    Nothing beats Christine’s’ quote about how Gov. Romney has strong opinions & he holds those opinions until he changes his mind.

    Phlunk wants us to somehow this vindicates WMR on his tax issue. The prevarications, the legalisms, the whole, what’s the word, “jive”? Has convinced me that WMR has something in his taxes so overwhelming in his taxes, that even he believes himself unelectable if it comes out. I speculated with el earlier on the issue.

    I’ll throw it back to a long list of politicians who engage in some behavior believing that it won’t come out. They are somehow going to be able to keep it secret.

    • enlightened liberal

      Again, I think it’s the amnesty thing. The truth is though that the withholding of the taxes, and Romney’s reaction to the requests, which is making him unelectable. He has always come off as smarmy to the American public and this only reinforces it.

      Someone needs to ask Rmoney how he got $100 million in his IRA.

  • oi ly
  • oi ly
  • oi ly
  • oi ly

    “That information, Reid said, “reveals that Mitt Romney manipulated one of the only two years of tax returns he’s seen fit to show the American people – and then only to ‘conform’ with his public statements. That raises the question: What else in those returns has Romney manipulated?””

    Keep at him, Harry. Reel the fish in.

    • Plunket

      Keep at him, Harry.

      Heh. Yeah, reel ‘em in, Dingy.

      Howard Dean: Reid’s credibility ‘in some trouble’ after Romney releases taxes

      On Friday’s broadcast of CNBC’s “The Kudlow Report,” former Democratic National Commission Chairman Howard Dean told fill-in host Joe Kernen that after Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney released his 2011 tax returns, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s credibility might be “in some trouble.”

      Not with the OW Five, it’s not, Howard. They’re all like, “Go Harry, on to Iowa….Yaaarhghhh!!”

      • oi ly

        Romney’s credibility has been in question from the start –

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD-SNkWbvsE

        Scumbag.

        • oi ly

          Shite, I’ve been trying to italicize for a while and here I am doing it without even trying to do it!

  • oi ly

    By employing this cynical letter ploy, Mitt’s saying fuck off to the 47% all over again. Twice in one week. Boundless arrogance.

  • oi ly

    Simple deed – release the original tax returns. It’s the simplest of things to do. Right now, I can go into our filing cabinet and produce the last 12 years of my business income tax returns or I can call my accountant and have her Fed Ex them anywhere I ask her to. No song and dance. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

    What’s he hiding? Why go to all the trouble of hiring an accounting firm?

    • Plunket

      Tell you what, Oily, if you decide to run for office, I won’t demand that you release more tax records than the law requires you to, just like Mitt Romney. I’ll stay consistent on that point, seeing as how we’re nation of laws. How would that be? Fair enough?

      • oi ly

        Tell you what Dennis, I don’t believe a word you said.

  • Zython

    Someone else thinks Mitt Romney should release all of his taxes

    One year could be a fluke, perhaps done for show, and what mattered in personal finance was how a man conducted himself over the long haul.

    • M2

      Mitt is certainly not his father. Hell, Mitt isn’t even the Mitt he was 8 years ago. I’ve never seen anyone in their political life completely flip on all of their core beliefs.

      And of course the amount money he gives to charity is admirable. Without doubt. It’s a wonder why he wouldn’t want to release 8 more years with those kind of numbers to brag about, isn’t it?

      • Plunket

        Mitt is certainly not his father.

        Are you your father, Marco?

        Without doubt. It’s a wonder why he wouldn’t want to release 8 more years with those kind of numbers to brag about, isn’t it?

        That’s not an incentive for him. He doesn’t brag about his charities. If that average Joe out there has a tough time comprehending the difference between effective and marginal tax rates, and Democrats can exploit that public ignorance as well as they have been able to, then you know anything at all about carried interest is just going to be another distraction for Dems to sit there and harp about for another two weeks to keep the lapdog media from talking about the economy. The difference between Mitt and his dad is that his dad didn’t run a hedge fund and didn’t have a complicated tax return that 99% of the public didn’t know their rear ends from their elbows about. That’s why he’s not giving you that, Marco. You know that, we know that, Romney knows that, Harry Reid knows that, and Obama knows that. So just keep om pretending that you care what’s in those returns and how you’re just shocked, shocked that Mitt isn’t just exactly like his old man. Good Lord.

        • Plunket

          Actually, that’s ok, you don’t need to answer that first question.

          • Plunket

            I’d love to see the Fast and Furious documents from the guy who claimed he’d have the most transparent administration ever, too, but that won’t happen either, Marco.

            From the years 2000-2004, the Obama’s made well over $250,000 in gross income and averaged charitable contributions of less than 0.9% of AGI. The Bidens made over $300,000 and averaged less than 0.5%. Those were in years that they were given the “Bush tax cuts for the rich” and they never paid more taxes than they were supposed to.

            Romney gave over 30% of his income to charity this year. 30%, Marco. The average percentage charitable contribution for people making over $10million is 6%. The Romney’s gave over 5 times the average for people in their income bracket.

            The average charitable contribution of all households that itemize deductions is 3.8%. So the Obama’s, before they knew they’d be running for President, were giving to charity well under 75% of just the average of all households, at a time when they were doing very, very well, making more than 98% of all Americans. While paying no more taxes than they had to legally.

            So you tell me who has no core principles. The guy who gives and gives and gives, or the guy who tells you he’s going to make other people give so he can give to you, but who gives very little of his own while getting rich telling convincing you that he’s the charitable one. UFB.

        • M2

          My dad is dead so I would have to answer, no.

          But your answer is because the average joe is so dumb, the democrats could exploit them and deceive said dumb asses about honest Mitt’s taxes. Oh, and the media, of course.

          Yup, there’s that dreaded 47% of people who dare to exist in the Republican universe, but at least Mitt didn’t call the electorate dumb like you just did. He has the sense to keep that to himself.

          Thanks. That’s all I need to know, Dennis.

          • M2

            Oh, and let them eat cake. You could put that in a notarized letter, too.

          • Plunket

            Mitt’s dad is dead, too.

            And yes, the average Joe doesn’t know that much about the tax code. I’m not a tax geek, but I’ve always done my own taxes and I understand the difference between marginal and effective, and just about every one of you guys has claimed you pay higher taxes than Mitt Romney does, and that is very, very doubtful. And even if true, not even a fair comparison unless you truly believe there shouldn’t be a lower tax rate on dividend and capital gains than there is for wage income. Christ, Marco, you guys would fault him for living on muni bond tax-exempt income because it would trend his effective rate toward zero. And then if he paid taxes on his tax-exempt income from muni’s, you’d say ‘Haw-haw, he paid more taxes than he owed, he just disqualified himself from the presidency’. That’s the level of sophistication on the this blog. Along with likening the worlds largest accounting firm to a note from your mom.

          • Plunket

            My dad is dead so I would have to answer, no.

            So is Mitt’s dad. If you’re not your dad, why do you thing Mitt should be his dad? That makes no sense.

          • Zython

            If you’re not your dad, why do you thing Mitt should be his dad?

            Because it would be an improvement.

          • M2

            I don’t live in a way that is a disgrace to my father either.

          • M2

            No Dennis, I fault him for not releasing his taxes like he expects of others. Why?

            Seems because the great unwashed will attack him for all the taxation awesome we just couldn’t understand. Only you, Mitt and Price Waterhouse get it.

            Hilarious.

          • Plunket

            Price Waterhouse has been his and Bain’s tax accountant for over 20 years. His taxes are prepared by them. If you don’t believe a certified and notarized tax summary from them, why would you believe the returns they prepared if he released them when you’re claiming that Price Waterhouse is not trustworthy and is lying now?

          • M2

            Yes, they’ve been doing his taxes for 20 years so where’s the 20 years of taxes?

            I can’t go over this forever. Mitt’s hiding. He’s afraid of Harry Reid, Univision voters and empty chairs.

          • Plunket

            You’ve stated that you wouldn’t believe anything his accountants put out anyway, which is what his tax returns would be, Marco. His tax returns are his signature on a form prepared by PriceWaterhouseCoopers based on information Romney gave them. You just received a summary certified by PWC based on the same information Romney gave them and they certified it and notarized it, and you’re saying it’s a lie and that PWC is a company that lied for his benefit. Why would you believe the tax returns then?

            The truth is, you wouldn’t. Truthers are never satisfied. The just make more demands and ask more questions and move on to the next conspiracy detail.

          • M2

            When did I state that I wouldn’t believe them, Dennis?

            This has been explained time and time again. Mitt’s taxes are surely legal and on the up & up, but he’s hiding some, again perfectly legal, creative accounting the unbathed 47% couldn’t even dream of.

            Calling me a truther would be apropos if Mitt showed his taxes and I still didn’t believe X, Y & Z. Mitt hasn’t shown shit but a letter and it’s not good enough.

          • Plunket

            Mitt didn’t call the electorate dumb like you just did.

            I didn’t call them dumb, I said the average voter doesn’t understand the tax code.

            Let me ask you something, would you consider Touré’s knowledge of taxes and the tax code above average or below average?

          • Plunket

            Or perhaps more pertinent, when you and Wilbur and el and db come on here and say you pay higher taxes than Mitt Romney, would you consider those intelligent statements of fact that would put above or below the average voter’s knowledge of the tax system as it stands today?

          • Plunket

            I don’t live in a way that is a disgrace to my father either.

            I would hope not, but you see, that is a really asshole thing to say, because somehow I kinda doubt you donate anywhere close to the same level of your income that Mitt Romney does, nor anywhere close to the same amount of time. I seriously doubt you could stand before anyone like Mitt Romney and judge whether or not the kind of man he is, which you stated was extraordinary, was a disgrace in the eyes of his father for no other reason than he didn’t show more taxes than was required by the law. I think it’s a pretty safe bet that his dad would be very proud of what his son has accomplished and what he’s given back all along the way, not just in the years he decided to run for president, like Obama did. All that time Obama was a business finance guy, a ‘constitutional lawyer’ (he wasn’t) and a community organizer….never gave much to charity, not anywhere close to what Romney gave. All those years he was talking about being a big proponent of redistribution? Never gave much back to charity. Why is that, marco?

            What your saying would be like saying Barack Obama’s father would think his son was a disgrace for claiming executive privilege for Fast and Furious after claiming his was going to be the most transparent administration ever.

          • M2

            God, Dennis. If only his admirable giving to charity could make up for his complete lack of core principles and horrid policies. I think knowing his son would sell out every fiber of his being to be President would be disappointing.

            I’d love to see how Mitt has helped charities thru the years, but no. That won’t happen. He’s hiding his best assest because?

            Right. There’s no reason.

            Face it. Romney policies are the reason people need charity.

          • M2

            Also, stop attributing thing to me I never said. I never compared my tax burden to Mitt’s.

    • Plunket

      Yeah, Zython, maybe Mitt Romney decided he was going to, you know, make his own decisions once he reached adulthood, and not be like a lot of liberals are with seriously f’ed up mommy and daddy issues that they’re still haunted by well into their 30’s, 40s, 50s and beyond.

      • Zython

        Dennis, I wouldn’t talk about “mommy-issues” if I were you.

        Seriously, though, why are you so angry? What has gone wrong in your life that you feel the need to lash out to the world?

  • Plunket

    A letter from the largest accounting firm in the world is not equivalent to 10 years of tax returns. It just isn’t. Never will be.

    Except that it’s not a joke, though, either, and he told you you weren’t getting his tax returns. What you got is a flat-out certification that Harry Reid lied to us all, and you unfortunately just do not have the courage, the self-confidence or the decency to admit that.

    • db

      Phlunk,

      “he told you you weren’t getting his tax returns.”

      Why?

      What’s he hiding?

    • M2

      Oh, Harry lied to us!!!!

      Bullshit. Why, because he said Mitt payed no taxes and meant zero? Are you nine?

      Honestly, why don’t you think he is releasing his taxes, Dennis? Really.

      • Plunket

        He paid a 20% effective tax rate for the last 20 years, Marco. That’s not close to nothing. That’s well within the norm for all taxpayers in his income level. Harry Reid was just making shit up. And he did it on the Senate floor. I know you think that’s all cool and everything but it’s not. And now he’s doubling down. And you guys are going all truther trying to defend him on it. It’s not satisfying to you to just get a summary, I know, but what you got is well enough and valid enough that you know Harry Reid was just being a scumbag and that there never was a Bain investor with inside knowledge of Romney’s tax return that told him he paid ‘no taxes’ or ‘very little taxes’ or whatever it is you think Reid was implying when he said he paid no taxes the last ten years.

        Why don’t you think the most transparent administration in history isn’t releasing all the documents to Fast and Furious? ‘Bush’s Fast and Furious’, as Obama claimed? Really, why?

        A very wise man once said that you don’t always get what you want, but that if you try sometimes, you get what you need. Romney just gave you what you needed. You found out that he’s a very generous man who made a lot of money and gave an exceedingly large portion of it away, much more than most people of his means do, and that he’s been paying the same amount of taxes as other people in his income bracket for a very long time, well before he decided to run for president. You got the answers you needed, but you’ll never get the answers you want, whether he releases his tax returns or not.

      • M2

        Yes, he’s said it and he has a letter. Dennis, that IS close to nothing at all. He offered a letter telling us “Trust me. Would Price Waterhouse fuck you over? No.”

        It’s a joke and you’re filibustering and making more false equivalences because you don’t want to answer the simple question of why won’t Mitt release the standard years of returns he’s asked of others.

        Because there’s no good answer or reason when Mitt himself already admitted there’s something there he does not want his opponents to see. He’s said it!

        C’mon.

        • Plunket

          Dennis, that IS close to nothing at all. He offered a letter telling us “Trust me. Would Price Waterhouse fuck you over? No.”

          Sorry, Marco, that is just bizarre conspiracy-theory bullshit stuff right there. I really, really want you guys, you guys meaning the Democratic Party and Obama and Axelrod and Reid and Stephanie Cutter and DWS, to all follow along with that narrative, that you think PWC just gave you the equivalent of a note from Romney’s mom saying he was a good little taxpayer to the best of her knowledge, and that that note was signed and notarized knowing that Romney was anything but a taxpayer. Yes, please, get that meme out there. Say it loud and say it proud.

          • Plunket

            And Marco, Harry Reid has said repeatedly that Romney ‘paid no taxes’. He has said that a Bain investor told him that and he has said that several people have told him that.

            Can you tell me what credence you give to his statements, literally or figuratively, even with the benefit of the doubt? Never mind that the benefit of the doubt goes way, way, way to his advantage, and Romney’s disadvantage, that someone in his position could say over and over that he pays no taxes on the floor of the Senate and then repeat that in public, what is it you think he meant, and do you think what he meant is true?

          • M2

            You are nine.

          • Plunket

            You are a birther/truther.

  • Plunket

    Oh, and Marco, here’s your “GM is alive and Osama bin Laden is dead” 21-time football-spiker the week before 9/11 stepping in it once again while trying to rally the base…

    Joe Biden Misstates Troop Size in Afghanistan

    - While railing against Mitt Romney’s comment about the 47 percent of voters who consider themselves to be “victims,” Vice President Joe Biden misstated the number of U.S. troops remaining in Afghanistan by several hundred thousand Friday evening.

    “By the way, those dependent people he refers to, those 47 percent, they include the 650,000 troops still left in Afghanistan who, because they are in combat, being shot at, injured, they do not have to pay any federal income tax on their salary. I don’t call that dependency. I call that ingratitude to not recognize they are a part of that 47 percent,” Biden said on the steps of the state house in Concord, N.H.

    Obama hired him because he was ‘supposedly an expert on foreign policy’.

    • M2

      Everybody sing: “Over there! Over there! I’m Dennis and hey look, over there!”

      A letter from the largest accounting firm in the world is not equivalent to 10 years of tax returns. It just isn’t. Never will be.

      Why won’t Mitt live up to his own standard? Why?

      • db

        Marco,

        He did show his taxes to McCain.McCain then decided that Sarah Palin would make a better VBice Presidential Candidate.

        What’s Romney Hiding?

  • M2

    We’re only asking Mitt to release what he asked of his VP candidates. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    • Plunket

      Shorter M2 and The Five: “We’re only asking the question about Obama’s birth certificate the PWC certification.”

      • M2

        HA, oh really? Talk about false equivalence.

        We’re only asking Mitt to release what he asked of his VP candidates. Nothing more. Nothing less.

        • Plunket

          And he’s already told you to F’ off, Marco. You’re left with trying to fault him for paying way more taxes than he was supposed to by ‘artificially inseminating’ his charitable contributions and wondering how you can cover for Harry’s Reid’s ridiculously blatant lie by somehow invoking a weird Truther conspiracy that involves the largest accounting firm in the world and the IRS.

          Good luck with that, my friend.

          • M2

            Oh, he told me, the elderly, the working class, the poor, the military to all fuck off, so I feel I am in great company.

            Talk out of yer ass all day, as usual. Nothing changes the fact that Mitt refuses to release his tax returns and as he admitted, he doesn’t want to Democrats to use the information contained within.

            Not even his excuse letter can excuse that.

            Dear America,

            Please excuse Mitt for not living up to his own standards.

            thanks.

            xoxox,

            Dr. Lecter

          • Plunket

            We know that he made a lot of money and paid a lot of taxes and is an extraordinarily charitable man, M2. The concern was that he didn’t pay his fair share of taxes. Unless you’re a Truther PWC/IRS conspiracy theorist making an outlandish claim that the largest accounting firm in the world’s notarized certification is akin to your mom’s letter to the teacher that you’re sick, like Oliver claimed, then you know that he in fact did pay his fair share of taxes, akin to the average for all taxpayers in his income bracket.

            Truthers will never be satisfied, so sorry, Marco, I can’ t help you much beyond that, and I’m afraid all Mitt’s tax returns back to the age of 14 wouldn’t either. There’s always going to be another idiot writing that grassy knoll book, and I’m afraid you’re just one of those kinds of guys.

  • Plunket

    Only way to remove any lingering doubt is to release the original tax returns. Not so difficult.</i

    That is categorically false. Truther/birthers will always have doubts. You will doubt the tax accountant, the IRS and the provider of tax information. You will doubt the tax code. You will doubt the taxpayer for availing himself of the tax code. You will doubt the taxpayer for paying more taxes than he had to. You will ask a million more questions with each and every revelation.

    Birther/Truthers will never stop having lingering doubts. Take that to the bank, grassy knoll freaks.

    • db

      NO!!!

      We want to see the taxes.
      Just like every other Presidential Candidate.
      Just like Romney asked of Ryan
      Just like Romney did for McCain.

      Huge difference with Birtherism.

      What’s Romney hiding?

  • oi ly

    Only way to remove any lingering doubt is to release the original tax returns. Not so difficult.

    I suspect it was alot more troublesome and expensive to hire one of the Big Four accounting firms to produce a letter then it would have been for Mitt to simply show the actual returns.

    What’s he hiding? The questions linger, the doubts remain. Solution – show the original tax returns. Simple.

  • Plunket

    They’ve been caught lying before, …. –Copypasta freak still shackled up in Time-Out

    ‘Sanctioned for inadequate audit’ and ‘failure to be diligent in their audit’ is not ‘been caught lying before’.

    Neither is it in any way the same thing as knowingly lying about a client who just happens to be running for president and having that lie approved by the top levels of the firm and their legal staff and then having that lie notarized for verification of their certification of that lie and having that lie published for worldwide review and microscopic scrutiny.

    Only a conspiracy-theory birther-type with little knowledge of either tax accounting or Big Four accounting firms would make this apples-to-oranges ridiculous comparison.

    And that is where you goes are going with this, birtherism/trutherism. With the IRS being an accomplice.

  • Wilbur

    Heh and double heh

    “In response to widespread speculation that Romney was hiding a large collection of kiddie porn and bondage porn in his basement, Romney today released a notarized statement from Price Waterhouse that he had no kiddie porn in his basement. Campaign spokespeople pronounced the governor ‘totally vindicated’.”

    heh indeedy.

    New Romney campaign slogan: “He didn’t evade taxes for ten years!”

    • Plunket

      Heh, you know what, Wilbur, one could say just as easily that Obama’s tax returns are nothing more than what he decided to put down on them. He could be overstating his deductions and understating his income, just like you birther/truthers are saying about Romney.

      You guys are claiming that PWC is lying about Romney’s taxes that the IRS has on file. If someone at the IRS decided to audit Romney’s taxes for failure to pay any income tax over the last ten year (or 2 years, now that PWC has certified that he did so in each and every year with an average annual effective rate of north of 20%), then he could do that, and both Romney and PWC’s lie would be exposed. You’re claiming, either for fun or outright stupidity, that PWC as a firm, the largest accounting firm in the world, would make that silly gamble.

      And you have no clue how ridiculous you sound.

      • Wilbur

        Once again the question swirls: is Dennis just dumb or is he deliberately missing the point in order to distract us?

        Fact: Obama released his tax returns, Romney didn’t

        Fact: Instead of taking the simple measure of releasing his tax returns, Romney hires accounting firm certify that he is not guilty of gross violations of the tax code.

        Fact: Said certification, even assuming it’s totally above board and accurate, says nothing about whether he has done something legal but embarrassing.

        Fact: People are free to draw their own conclusions about that sequence of facts.

        • enlightened liberal

          One thing about this controversy- Republicans are FINALLY talking about their candidate. Not exactly what they were looking for though…still waiting for reasons to vote for Mitt, I don’t think we’re going to hear any.

          Paul Ryan can at least do American Express commercials a la Bill Miller.

        • Plunket

          Fact: Birther/Truthers will always say “Hey, I’m just asking questions! No harm in that, right?”

          Fact: Obama released his tax returns, Romney didn’t
          Fact: Romney has been extraordinarily generous with his charitable giving his whole life, Obama hasn’t been. Biden has been ridiculously cheap.

          Fact: Instead of taking the simple measure of releasing his tax returns, Romney hires accounting firm certify that he is not guilty of gross violations of the tax code.

          Fact: PriceWaterhouseCoopers has always been Romney’s and Bain accounting firm. PWC certified that what has been alleged about Romney, that he hasn’t paid taxes for the last ten years, was in fact a false allegation and a blatant lie.

          Fact: Said certification, even assuming it’s totally above board and accurate, says nothing about whether he has done something legal but embarrassing.

          Fact: Romney’s opponents now somehow consider Romney paying more taxes than he actually owed ‘legal but embarrassing’. ‘Legal but embarrassing can mean anything, and Romney’s opponents, the same opponents who cheer Harry Reid’s sleaziness, will find anything and everything ‘legal but embarrassing’ because the majority of Americans, like the OW Five, do not understand the difference between effective tax rates vs marginal tax rates.

          Fact: People are free to draw their own conclusions about that sequence of facts.

          Fact: “Don’t call us Birthers!! We’re just asking questions. Draw your own conclusions.”

          • Zython

            Romney has been extraordinarily generous with his charitable giving his whole life, Obama hasn’t been. Biden has been ridiculously cheap.

            How much of that was to the Church of LDS?

            Romney’s opponents now somehow consider Romney paying more taxes than he actually owed ‘legal but embarrassing’

            Because it makes him a hypocrite and, if his first statement was true, unqualified to be President.

          • oi ly

            Fact: Obama released his tax returns, Romney didn’t
            Fact: Romney has been extraordinarily generous with his charitable giving his whole life, Obama hasn’t been. Biden has been ridiculously cheap.

            Fact: irrelevant

          • Plunket

            How much of that was to the Church of LDS?

            The only way that is relevant is if you’re a religious bigot, which from your prior statements we know is true.

            Because it makes him a hypocrite and, if his first statement was true, unqualified to be President.

            No it doesn’t. First of all, that charge is nothing but a ridiculously childish ‘gotcha’ claim. He was talking about it in the past tense. And it no more disqualifies him for the presidency than Obama disqualified himself when he said we’d be looking at a one-term presidency if he didn’t have things turned around by this time when he said it three years ago.

            You want to compare apples to apples on those two statements, one guy didn’t do what he said he should rightfully be fired for by not turning the economy around, and the other guy acquiesced and paid a lot more to the government than he had to because he was overly generous in his charitable giving.

            What is it about charitable giving that makes you nauseous, Zython?

          • Plunket

            Fact: Obama released his tax returns, Romney didn’t
            Fact: Romney has been extraordinarily generous with his charitable giving his whole life, Obama hasn’t been. Biden has been ridiculously cheap.

            Fact: irrelevant

            It’s irrelevant because a lot of voters don’t care if a candidate is a cheapskate when it comes to giving to others. As long as that candidate votes to get them free stuff, it doesn’t matter how or where or from whom he gets it, or how, or if, he can pay it back. They’ll think the guy who talks the good game but keeps what he makes to himself the far more charitable guy.

            That’s just politics, right Oily? Irrelevant.

          • Zython

            The only way that is relevant is if you’re a religious bigot, which from your prior statements we know is true.

            Because religious institutions, the Church of LDS in particular, have never used their funds for political financing.

            First of all, that charge is nothing but a ridiculously childish ‘gotcha’ claim.

            Sorry for holding Romney accountable to the things he said.

            He was talking about it in the past tense.

            Of course. Romney’s position only holds up until he states his position. Then it’s fair game.

            And it no more disqualifies him for the presidency than Obama disqualified himself when he said we’d be looking at a one-term presidency if he didn’t have things turned around by this time when he said it three years ago.

            I think he wants the American people to make that call.

            What is it about charitable giving that makes you nauseous, Zython?

            Like anything Romney has ever said and done, I trust his “charity” as far as I can throw it.

    • db

      Price Waterhouse established there was no kiddie porn in the basement. They said nothing about the 2nd. floor.

      Phlunk,

      Release 10 years of taxes. That’s the goalpost & it hasn’t moved.

      • Plunket

        You and Harry Reid wanted to see the returns because you both said he hadn’t paid taxes in the last ten years. Romney produced a notarized, certified summary statement from his accounting firm that confirmed that he paid a large effective tax rate for the last twenty years and paid taxes in each of those years. That was Harry Reid’s goalpost, Birther db. Harry Reid is lying, or you all think PWC and the IRS are lying. And you, sir, said Harry Reid would be a laughingstock if his ridiculous claim were proven false. The only way that he wasn’t proven false is if you say flat-out that PWC is lying. You call that word games, but what it is is weaseling out on your part. Straight-up weaseling out, db.

        • db

          Phlunk,

          We’d both been told. Huge difference. & WMR STILL hasn’t released his taxes.

          What’s he hiding?

          • Plunket

            Probably a lot more charitable giving than he reported, db. Charitable giving to religious organizations, which is what he didn’t claim deductions for, which is what you said you believed he should do. He did what you said you wanted him to do when I asked you what an individual who gives a shit-ton of money to charities and who is no longer receiving earned income but instead making capital gains and dividend income should do….not deduct money given to religious organizations. And now you, lacking the character to laud him for something you said he should do, persist in this ‘what’s he hiding, he must be a criminal’ insinuation game. That’s just weasely bush league stuff, Priceless.

  • oi ly

    Show the public the original, “long form” tax returns. Seems like a fair and reasonable request. I’m sure they’re in a drawer somewhere or sitting on his kitchen table. Right Frank?

    • db

      oi,

      First off, I want to point out that last night Dennis referred to the letter as a summary. It’s a small but significant difference. The fact that Romney paid taxes is much different than how or why he paid taxes. el & I discussed this yesterday. Essentially if Romney did avail himself of the amnesty, he admits that the prior taxes were false & since they are filed under penalties of perjury, it makes him a perjurer.

      We know what Republicans think of Perjurers. See In re: Clinton (1998).

      Next I want to point out that Dennis, in the last thread, called the Firm “Price Waterhouse Coppers”. Normally a typo; the fact that he asserts that they’ve “policed” the Romney taxes makes it too good a joke to pass up.

      I’m working off of reports of reports. The exact facts & what (if anything) the PWC letter states is vitally important. As is the fact that WMR apparently must keep the specifics of his past taxes secret. Did he run away with the Church Funds?

      • Plunket

        Birther/Truther db,

        The more information a birther/truther receives, the further away the goalposts move, and the more questions the truther/birther will then ask.

        The truther/birther will never be satisfied. The truther/birther does not want the game to end.

  • Plunket

    Obama for America TV Ad: “Makes You Wonder”

    “Makes you wonder if some years he paid any taxes at all.”

    “I’m Barack Obama and I approve this message.”

    Unless Barack Obama thinks the largest accounting firm in the world just put out a lie and had their lie notarized, then Barack Obama doesn’t have to wonder any more, and neither does anyone else. Barack Obama should approve that message.

    • Zython

      Unless Barack Obama thinks the largest accounting firm in the world just put out a lie and had their lie notarized,

      Just 4 years ago, we had major financial corporations lying about the status of their holdings. One firm lying about one customer’s finances is far from impossible.

      • oi ly

        Not to mention the more recent LIBOR scandal; nah, they never lie for personal gain and to protect their own.

        Never happens.

  • SaveFarris

    Way to distract from the fact that Harry Reid and Steph Cutter both owe Romney personal apoligies (and resignation letters).

    • Plunket

      Yes, that was listed as one of the big reasons Romney should release his tax returns by the folks here, for the shear fun of completely shaming and embarrassing Harry Reid.

      Turns out Harry Reid is in fact shameless and impervious from rebuke from fellow liberals, no matter how sleazy he gets. The folks here have gone completely silent on that, choosing instead to call PriceWaterhouse liars, when there is virtually no upside for PWC for lying, but a world of downside for the entire firm worldwide. Why would Mitt Romney choose the world’s largest accounting firm to do his taxes for the last 20+ years and now ask them to lie for him and just expect that they would? Serious birther stuff right there.

    • enlightened liberal

      Harry Reid owes Willard nothing. All Harry Reid said is that a source at Bain said that Mitt paid no taxes. That hasn’t been disproven- Harry Reid’s source probably did say that Mitt paid no taxes.

      As far as PWC, the notarized letter is meaningless. I wonder why a major accounting firm would be willing to run cover for someone who COULD be President and be in position to steer billions of federal dollars their way. Hmm. The mind boggles.

      Why won’t Mitt just release his taxes? Why does he continue to dishonor his father’s memory?

      • Plunket

        The IRS would be in on this conspiracy too, you know that, Birther Enlightened?

        Given that you’ve stated at least ten times that this election is over, tell me why PWC would take that bribe and gamble their entire future, possibly their entire existence, on that unlikely outcome. This is the firm that audits the votes for the Academy Awards. Just pretend that they have no Democrats working in the upper echelons of the firm, none of their legal staff that had to be involved in this conspiracy. Just think for a second what you’re alleging, just because you wish to continue this birther nonsense.

        Harry Reid lied. So did Obama when he approved that message. Both were shameful and they both owe everyone an apology.

      • Plunket

        Hey enlightened, ya think maybe Harry Reid ought to be a little pissed at his Bain investor mole friend for giving him such a lousy tip that made a fool out of him? Harry Reid trusted him enough to go on the floor of Congress and repeat that false information. You think Harry should at least say that he might’ve trusted his mole whisperer, but that he should’ve at least verified him, too, before announcing his rumor to the world?

        Is that too much to expect from the Senate Majority Leader? Yes, trust, but first verify, his mole sources? Hmm?

      • SaveFarris

        All Harry Reid said is that a source at Bain said that Mitt paid no taxes. That hasn’t been disproven

        I’ve got multiple sources that claim Harry Reid is a pedarist. That hasn’t been disproven.

        Why doesn’t Harry Reid come clean?

        • Plunket

          Enlightened has no clue whatsoever how sleazy that was for Harry Reid. EL is now saying since it hasn’t been disproven that Harry Reid’s source merely told Harry Reid that Mitt Romney paid no taxes for the last ten years, Harry Reid’s claim that he announced before the Senate acceptable. Acceptable until proven that Harry Reid’s likely imaginary source did not tell him that.

          This is who liberals are. This is what they do.

          Let me ask you something knowing you’ll never have the stones to answer, el, in effect a rhetorical question for you…… If Harry Reid’s source was telling the truth, and did have verifiable information upon which Harry Reid trusted him enough to risk his career and his reputation over, then why did PriceWaterhouseCoopers certify that Romney paid over a 20% effective tax rate for the last 20 years and in fact did pay taxes in each and every year? If PWC was aware that someone had that information, why would they risk their very existence lying about something that someone else was able to easily disprove. As a Bain investor, he could come out, claim PWC and Romney were lying, provide his evidence, and file suit. PWC’s lawyers had to be aware of that before they gave the ok and their signature, don’t you think? Or didn’t you think?

    • Zython

      If we required everyone who was wrong about something to resign, the GOP wouldn’t exist.

      Or does only being wrong about a white straight male count?

  • Plunket

    For instance, today’s tax release. We don’t really know any more now than we did before,

    That’s not true. We know he paid a 20% average effective tax rate for the last 20 years. We know that Harry Reid lied when he said he paid NO taxes the last ten years. And we know he is an exceedingly generous man, far more than Obama, and millions of times more than the skinflint Vice President. Far more than Bill Clinton before he ran for president, who once claimed a deduction for old underwear donated to Goodwill.

    It’s even crazier that they think a letter from PriceWaterhouseCoopers can substitute for those tax returns. It’s like he got a letter excusing young Mitt from math class “cause he got a cold real bad.” You’ve got to be kidding me.

    This is birther territory. Grassy knoll. Vince Foster. Fire can’t melt steel. The repercussions to PriceWaterhouse for lying about his taxes would be astronomical. To compare it to a note to the teacher is not serious thinking.

  • oi ly

    Oh, stop it! This is hard. Damn you people.